Tape#388:

Certain patient names in this text have been changed by request.

Tape#: 388, Partial Side A & Side B Date: 10/15/92
  AB - ALICE BROWN
  KT - ALICE THORNTON
  JP - DR. JUDITH PETERSON
  SD - SYLVIA DAVIS
  UF - UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
  (UI) - Unintelligible
1   (Partial Side A - Beginning of Session)
2 SD:  Did you ah, ever finish your rewrite of ah, your letter
3   to CPS, Alice?
4 AB:  Um, yes I did, and it hasn't -- I haven't sent it to get
5   copies yet, though.
6 SD:  Is it in your room?
7 AB:  Yes..
8 SD:  And it's finished? Do you want to get it and give it to
9   Alice?
10 AB:  Um, yeah. Can I do that after?
11 SD:  Yeah, you could do that after.
12 KT:  I had a report that you wanted to talk to me about some
13   things, that you had some new stuff that you needed to
14   tell me?
15 AB:  Yeah, it's about my stepdad, urm --
16 KT:  Is it BA?
17 AB:  Um-hum.
18 KT:  Is that right?
1

1 AB: I've been remembering some stuff about some abuse that he
2  did to me when I was living with him, and I don't want to
3  see him anymore.
4 KT: Okay.
5 AB: Because of what he did to me.
6 KT: Can you tell me a little bit about what he did?
7 AB: He sexually abused me and he beat me a lot and he hurt my
8  family, too, my mom and my sister.
9 KT: How did he hurt you?
10 AB: Sometimes when I would be in my room at night, he would
11  come into my room and he would get into bed with me.
12 KT: Did he touch you? Can you tell me a little bit about
13  what he did? I know it's hard.
14 AB: He would touch me on my chest, and other places, too.
15 KT: On other private parts? How many times did that happen?
16 AB: A lot. I don't know.
17 KT: Did it happen like every night or every other -- a lot of
18  times during the week?
19 AB: Yeah.
20 KT: And this was at night? Was it always at night? And it
21  was always in your bedroom? Did he ever do anything any
22  time, any other times or anyplace else?
23 AB: One time, it was last Christmas, actually, I was sitting
24  down on the couch next to him, he told me to come and sit
25  next to him and I did, and he started tickling me and I

    2
1  didn't like it, he was tickling me on my ribs and I
2  didn't like it, so I got up and I tried to go to my room,
3  and he kind of came after me, kind of like he wanted to
4  tickle me some more, and when I got to my room I was
5  telling him to stop and to leave me alone and he wouldn't
6  stop, and he óó he pushed me onto my bed and he started
7  tickling me and he tried to pull my shirt off, but I
8  didn't let him and I kind of hit him and then he hit me
9  back on this -- he hit me in the stomach and then he
10  left.
11 KT: I'm writing all this down so that I can make sure I'm --
12  I want to note everything that you tell me. Okay? Is
13  that all right? Do you mind? I just don't want to have
14  to remember it later and remember it wrong. So then he
l8  left the room after you hit him?
16 AB: After he hit me, he left.
17 KT: After he hit you? You never hit him?
18 AB: Yes, I hit him and then he hit me back.
19 KT: Okay.
20 SD: Excuse my interruption, but Alice, are there any other --
21  uh, is there anybody else inside that would like to
22  elaborate on this abuse and on the question um, Alice
23  Thornton just asked about did abuse happen anyplace else
24  other than the home?
3
1 AB: Yes, it did happen in other places, uhóhuh. It happened
2  a lot at cult meetings.
3 KT: And that was still BA?
4 AB: Yeah.
5 KT: Did anybody else ever touch you?
6 AB: Some other people that I didn't know. I guess they were
7  friends of my dad.
8 KT: Your dad being BA?
9 AB: Uh-huh, my stepdad.
10 KT: Is there anything else you need to tell me about it?
11 AB: I don't want to see him anymore.
12 KT: Okay. The letter that you wrote to me, what is it about?
13 AB: About my dad, about my stepdad.
14 KT: About what you just told me? Where is the letter?
15 AB: In my room.
16 KT: Do you want to get it?
17 AB: Actually I wrote it to Ivy Chambers because I understood
18  at the time that she was my case worker.
19 KT: Right. She passed it on to me. She is now the
20  supervisor. She got a promotion, so she gave the case to
21  me because she can't work cases anymore. She's there -ó
22  that's óó When I finish talking to you, I'm gonna go back
23  and tell her everything that I found out, you know,
24  everything your mom told me and that you told me and that

4
1    your sister told me, and then she's gonna help me make
2    decisions, so she'll be seeing the letter, too.
3  (End of Side A)
4  (Beginning of Side B)
5 KT:  Has she exposed a lot more to you?
6 SD:  Oh, that's the most minimal sanitized thing I ever heard.
7 KT:  What did she say?
8 SD:  She uh, talked about some fondling stuff, essentially,
9   fondling in the bed and so on, which is, you know, bad
10   stuff, but this is a child who claims to have been
11   electroshocked, to have been put in a lobster cage in the
12   water and drowned and --
13 KT:  Yeah, I read that in the narratives.
14 SD:  --and revived to uh, have -- you know, the pornography.
15   Uh, what else? Chained, chained to posts, chained to
16   walls, chained to beds, chained to this, that, the other.
17   She's being very circumspect in her comments today.
18 KT:  I know it's hard talking to a new person that she's not
19   familiar with. I'm sure it doesn't help that she's had
20   so many different caseworkers, either.
21 JP:  Yeah, I think she's -- you're the third, on this case.
22 KT:  Yeah, Fletcher and Ivy (UI).
23 SD:  Uh --
24 KT:  Great, thanks. I can take this with me?
25 AB:  Uhóhuh.
    5

1 KT: Alright.
2 JP: Is that something that we have a copy of, Alice, in the
3  file?
4 AB: No. I haven't given it to the secretary yet.
5 JP: Would you like to have a copy made, because somebody
6  could probably go do that on administration so that you'd
7  have a copy, too.
8 AB: Yeah.
9 UF: You want a copy of it? I'll go make a couple of copies.
10  Is this in pencil óó no this is in pen.
11 SD: No, that's in pen. That should come out okay.
12 UF: I'll go make a couple of copies.
13 JP: (UI) .
14 UF: (UI) the secretary.
15 JP: I'm sorry.
16 UF: Let me go run it, it'll just be --
17 JP: I'm sorry Ilene.
18 UF: óó a few minutes. That's okay.
19 SD: Why do those people go home and stop working? We're
20  still here. I don't understand that. You're still here.
21  The secretary's go home. It's not right, is it, Alice?
22 KT: No. Secretaries are never around when you need them.
23  You were telling me about your dad touching you.
24 AB: Uhóhuh.

1 KT: Did it ever go any further than that? Did he ever do
2  anything else to you?
3 AB: Sometimes.
4 KT: Like what? (Pause) Did you ever have to touch him?
5  What would you have to touch him with?
6 AB: My hand.
7 KT: Your hand? On his private parts? And what do you call
8  those? Do you have another name for them? Could you
9  tell me so that I'm sure that we're talking about the
10  same thing? I know it's hard, but I talk to kids all day
11  long, and I hear these words. I mean, it might be a
12  dirty word, but that's okay, but I need to know that
13  we're talking about the same thing. Could you give me, I
14  mean any word that you use for that part?
15 AB: His penis.
16 KT: Okay. So your hand on his penis? And that's all you
17  ever had to touch him with, is just your hands?
18 JP: Did anything else ever happen to you?
19 AB: What do you mean?
20 JP: Huh?
21 AB: What do you mean?
22 JP: Just what I asked. Did anything else ever happen to you?
23  Anybody inside?

1 AB: You say (UI) . Sometimes when he would come in from being
2  at work, he would be really drunk or something, and he
3  would hit me, when mom wasn't there.
4 KT: So he drinks a lot?
5 AB: Uhóhuh.
6 KT: How many óó When he sits down to drink, how much does he
7  drink?
8 AB: A lot until he's really drunk.
9 JP: His alcoholism was confirmed in this hospital stage (UI) .
10 KT: So how many times did he try to touch you? Did that
11  happen a lot?
12 AB: Usually whenever mom wasn't there, and sometimes when mom
13  was there he did it, and he told mom that she couldn't do
14  anything because the same thing would happen to her.
15 KT: So your mom knew about it? Did she ever see it happen?
16  But he would threaten her? What did he threaten her
17  with? What did he say would happen to her?
18 AB: The same thing that happened to me.
19 KT: Which was what?
20 AB: He would touch her, too, and he would hit her and beat
21  her up.
22 KT: Did he ever threaten you? What did he say when he would
23  threaten you?
24 AB: He would say he was gonna get me and nobody could help
25  me.
    8

1 KT: So how was he going to get you? Does that mean hitting,
2  or what does that mean?
3 AB: Anything, he wanted to do.
4 KT: Did you ever see him do this to anybody else? Who else?
5 AB: I saw it happen to my mom once. I saw him hit at my mom
6  once, and I saw him beat up my sister once.
7 KT: Did he ever touch your sister? And you saw it or did she
8  tell you about it?
9 AB: Both.
10 KT: Is there anything else you want me to know?
11 AB: I don't think so.
12 KT: Is there anything you're worried about, any questions you
13  want to ask me?
14 AB: No.
15 KT: Where would you like to go when you leave the hospital?
16 AB: Somewhere away from my stepdad.
17 KT: Is there anybody that you can think of that you'd like to
18  stay with?
19 AB: My mom, when she' gets better.
20 KT: That's it? There is nothing else you want to tell me?
21  Is there anything you forgot to put in your letter?
22 AB: No.
23 KT: Do you have any questions?
24 JP: Does anybody wonder what's gonna happen? Anybody want to
25  ask?
    9

1 AB: What's gonna happen?
2 KT: When you leave the hospital?
3 AB: Uhóhuh.
4 KT: Well, until your mom gets better, we're gonna try to find
5  a place for you to stay that's safe. Does that sound
6  like a good idea? Do you have any ideas on where you'd
7  like to stay?
8 AB: No.
9 KT: No? You don't know of any safe places?
10 UF: Would you like to know what kind of place she's (UI)?
11 AB: Yeah. What kind of place are you talking about?
12 KT: Well, when you place children, sometimes it's with foster
13  families, but sometimes that's not safe for them either.
14 AB: If I go with a foster family, is there a danger that my
15  mom wouldn't óó might not get me back?
16 KT: No. Our job is to make sure that we do everything
17  possible to make sure the families stay together. Okay?
18  Which means your mom and your sister and you. We want to
19  work so that óó We want to work with the doctors here and
20  with any therapists that we might get you in the future
21  after you leave here, and we want to work with all of us
22  together so that we get you back together as a family,
23  but we want to make sure you're all safe first. Okay?
24 JP: If foster care isn't safe enough, where else might you
25  think we could give her?
    10

1 KT: If foster care is not safe enough, there is places that's
2  sort of like this place, it would be, they're called
3  shelters, or residential treatment places where there is
4  therapists and a whole bunch of kids live together, and
5  everybody has rooms or, like here, you each have a room,
6  and you talk to your therapists and you live like that,
7  and there would be schools there and things like that.
8 UF: Would that still be in Houston?
9 KT: Possibly. How do you feel about leaving Houston?
10 AB: Scary.
11 KT: Scary. Scary to go to new places, isn't it?
12 UF: How does it feel to think about staying in Houston?
13 AB: Scary. .
14 UF: Uhóhuh.
15 KT: Where do you think you'd be the safest? In Houston or
16  away from Houston?
17 AB: Away from Houston because my dad's here in Houston.
18 KT: So even though it's scary, you'd probably be better if
19  you left Houston?
20 JP: You know what, Alice?
21 AB: Huh?
22 JP: It sounds like if you're gonna be scared it might as well
23  be worth it.
24 AB: Uhóhuh.
25 JP: Does that make sense?
    11

1 AB: Uhóhuh.
2 UF: Alice, does anybody inside want to know what happens now
3  that she has this report, what the next step is?
4 AB: Uhóhuh.
5 KT: Like I told you, with Ivy Chambers, when I get done here,
6  I'm gonna go back and tell Ivy what you told me, and
7 we're gonna discuss it and we'll get together with some
8 people who óó they know all of the places where kids can
9 go, all the foster homes and everything, and we're gonna
10  get together with them and tell them what your situation
11  is and what you need, and we're gonna see if they can
12  find a safe place for you to go after you get done here,
13  but I'll be contacting you to let you know what Ivy says,
14  and to let you know everything along the way, what we're
15  doing.
16 JP: And what you need to know, Alice, is that based on the
17  kind of problems you have and kind of worries that you
18  have about your safety, that we're not, we're not
19 recommending right now that you'd be safe in foster care.
20  We're recommending that you'd be a lot safer where you
21  have more people to watch over you and take care of you.
22 AB: Uhóhuh.
23 JP: And so we're recommending that they look at their list of
24  special places that are more residential and offer you
25  more structure and uh, all of you inside will know that
    12

1  you couldn't just walk down the street and have somebody
2  hurt you, that you need more structure right now. Does
3  that make sense?
4 AB: Uhóhuh.
5 KT: Is that what you want?
6 AB: I don't want to be by myself.
7 KT: Would you be happy in a place like that, like I was
8  saying where you all live sort of like this place, with
9  therapists there and a bunch of kids live there?
10 AB: Yeah.
11 KT: You could be happy in something like that?
12 AB: Uhóhuh.
13 KT: You think that would be safe for you?
14 AB: I think so.
15 JP: When you say you don't want to be by yourself honey, what
16  do you mean?
17 AB: I want somebody there with me, like a therapist or a
18  nurse or somebody.
19 JP: Uhóhuh.
20 KT: So that would be the best idea?
21 JP: It's real important that you said that, that you know
22  that that's important for you. It's gonna be real
23  important that you tell the (UI) around you what you
24  need, for safety.
25 AB: Uhóhuh.
    13

1 JP: Because sometimes people look like they can be safe and
2  inside they don't feel safe at all. So in with your
3  caseworker now, needs to know about how you feel inside.
4 AB: Scared.
S JP: We're gonna have time óó you and mom, and Carol to
6  talk about all these things, because today all of you are
7  meeting, with each other alone --
8 AB: Uhóhuh.
9 JP: And with, with your caseworker and then you'll have time
10  in family therapy to work on it some more. You can ask
11  mom about what she said and how it went, and ask
12  Carol óó Compare notes so you can see she asked you
13  the same questions.
14 KT: It's real important that you tell me everything that
15  you're worried about, though, so that I can pick out the
16  perfect place for you, because I don't want to have to
17  move you around because something doesn't work out, but,
18  see, I don't know you, so you have to tell me everything
19  there is to know and everything that you need and that
20  you're scared about, so that I don't make any mistakes.
21  Okay?
22 JP: Would it be important that she make a list maybe, with
23  Sylvia, of the kinds of things ó
24 KT: Yeah, that would work.

1 JP: óó that she, that she would need uh, in a special place
2  for her?
3 KT: Uhóhuh. That would be helpful. Could you do that in
4  therapy? Work on a list of things that you need, because
5  I want to make sure it's the right place for you. Does
6  that make sense?
7 JP: Like I'll bet you need a bed.
8 KT: No, she's gonna sleep standing up.
9 UF: And good (UI) . Alice, are you wondering in any way how
10  long this takes to find a place?
11 AB: Well, yeah. I didn't really think about it, but, yeah.
12 KT: It's gonna take a while. It's not gonna happen in the
13  next few days or weeks. It would probably be at least a
14  month before we can find something, because it takes a
15  while to pick that perfect spot.
16 UF: And we're all gonna work together on that.
17 KT: Do you think you'd be ready then?
18 AB: Will mom get to help pick out the place, too?
19 KT: Uhóhuh, yeah. I get to talk to you and your mom and
20  Carol to make sure that everybody's in agreement.
21 AB: And maybe Cathy be there with me?
22 KT: Cathy? How do you feel about that? Would you want her
23  there with you?
24 AB: I think so.
25 KT: You think so?
    15

1 AB: So I wouldn't be so scared.
2 KT: What is your relationship like with Cathy?
3 AB: I get along with her. I can talk to her. Like when I
4  walked out with Dr. Seward and I had heard that you were
5  coming, I told her I was scared.
6 KT: Have you always had a good relationship with her? Where
7  you could talk to her?
8 AB: Yeah.
9 KT: You would call her Cathy, is that right?
10 AB: Uhóhuh. Sometimes I call her both, Cathy or Carol.
11 KT: Cathy óó Carol. I need to ask you about something
12  that somebody told me, that you and your sister had
13  touched each other. Is that true? Yeah? Can you tell
14  me when that happened?
15 AB: It happened a long time ago.
16 KT: Like how old were you? When you were real little or ó
17 AB: No. I think I was maybe eleven.
18 KT: Did that just happen one time?
19 AB: No.
20 KT: No? It happened a lot?
21 AB: Yeah.
22 SD: I'm wondering if you'd be able to tell Alice some of the
23  other things that you did to your sister and that she did
24  to you that we've talked about.

1 AB: I used to take a knife and cut her on the arm because
2  that's what my mom told me to do. She used to do that to
3  me, too. We used to hit each other a lot. Carol
4  used to come home from school and she would give me
5  drugs. I didn't know what they were, but I took them
6  anyways, because she told me to.
7 KT: Do you know what they are now?
8 AB: No.
9 KT: No? How did they make you feel?
10 AB: Really dizzy. Sometimes I'd go to sleep and sometimes I
11  couldn't see.
12 KT: So it was pills? Did Cathy take the pills, too?
13 JP: Do you know why she gave you the pills?
14 AB: No. Because I never remember anything after that.
15 SD: Did anybody else in the family give you drugs?
16 AB: My mom.
17 KT: Did BA ever give you any?
18 AB: Yeah, I think so.
19 KT: Did your mom and BA take the drugs, too?
20 AB: Not usually.
21 KT: Is there anything else that happened between you and your
22  sister?
23 AB: We used to try and drown each other.
24 KT: Did somebody tell you to do that? Who told you?

1 AB: Different people told me. Sometimes my mom would tell
2  me, sometimes my stepdad would tell me. Sometimes other
3  people would tell me.
4 KT: Is there anything else you want to tell me about? Would
5  you feel safe being placed with your sister at the same
6  place?
7 AB: I don't know. I'd have to think about it.
8 KT: I'd like you to think about that a little bit and let me
9  know whenever you decide. Okay? Because that would be
10  really important. Do you have any other concerns?
11 AB: How long will I be there?
12 KT: When we place you, you'll be there until your mom is
13 . ready to, to have you live with her again.
14 AB: What happens if she never gets there?
15 KT: You think she'll never get there?
16 AB: Sometimes I do.
17 KT: Well, when you reach eighteen, then you're able to do
18  whatever you want to, so you could either stay there or
19  you could go but on your own.
20 UF: Like go to college or something?
21 KT: Uhóhuh. Do you want to go to college?
22 AB: Uhóhuh.
23 KT: What do you want to study?
24 AB: I don't know.
25 KT: Haven't decided yet?
    18

1 AB:  No.
2 KT:  That's hard to decide.
3 JP:  Do you guys remember when I talked to you the other day
4   when I said I was gonna call CPS?
5 AB:  Yeah.
6 JP:  Uhóhuh. Because Alice's here for óó It is Alice, right?
7 KT:  Uhóhuh.
8 JP:  It is Alice.
9 KT:  Right.
10 JP:  Okay. I was thinking I was getting real confused here on
11   names, you know?
12 KT:  Two Alices in the room.
13 JP: . Two Alices cause óó Alice from CPS is here for two
14   reasons and that is that I did talk to CPS when I said I
15   would?
16 AB:  Uhóhuh.
17 JP:  About what some parts in you told me that they wanted to
18   do, and that they needed to do and are going to do, and I
19   told them they couldn't do, and I don't know if you
20   remember that.
21 AB:  Well, I told Dr. Peterson how there was somebody inside
22   that was out talking and they said that they were angry
23   because they couldn't get back to the cult and hurt
24   people, hurt children, because that was their job. They
25   were angry that they were here.
    19

1 JP: You wanted to leave, huh? And what did I say?
2 AB: You said no.
3 JP: I said more than no, huh? I said that CPS had to know
4  about abuse or an intention to hurt (UI) , that you were
5  planning that, but that no matter what your age, it
6  doesn't matter, Alice, whether somebody's an adult like
7  mom or twenty or thirteen, it's against the law to hurt
8  children, and grownóups, in the State of Texas, and I
9  want Alice to know that that's something that (UI) and we
10  don't won't to have happen, the parts inside know, that
11  that's not going to happen. How do they feel about that?
12 AB: Some of them are glad, but still some of them are angry.
13 JP: I was gonna say I'll bet you that parts were mad at me.
14  Is that possible?
15 AB: Yeah.
16 JP: Yeah? Can you tell me? No? Can I tell Sylvia later
17  about that? Another day? Because it's real important
18  that they let out the anger, and people are mad when they
19  can't do a job they think that they're supposed to do.
20  But it really is against the law, and when they hurt you,
21  they broke the law, the grown ups did ó
22 AB: Uhóhuh.
23 JP: óó and other kids did and you did.
24 AB: Uhóhuh.

1 JP: When you hurt other people? And you have choices now
2  about that, and that's not gonna happen and you can help
3  that not happen, and you can help Alice help you with
4  that by letting her know from parts inside that want to
S  hurt other people, because the more you can talk about it
6  out loud, and it becomes complicated to talk about, then
7  the less likely, it is to happen. And I wanted you guys
8  to know that no matter what age, that kids are gonna get
9  protected, starting with this kid right here in this blue
10  chair, or whatever color it is. Dirty gray, or whatever.
11  And mom doesn't want you to hurt anybody, and mom doesn't
12  want to hurt children anymore. Mom wants to get well, so
13  mom doesn't do that. So maybe this could be a new
14  beginning for the family, where people don't get hurt and
15  don't hurt each other anymore. Sounds like it's been a
16  real hurting family. So I was just sort of wondering if
17  you could kind of take that inside, that idea, that you
18  might meet in family therapy, that the idea that, okay,
19  now nobody's gonna hurt anybody anymore at all. Begin
20  with everybody a new beginning.
21 UF: Contemplate.
22 JP: Are you surprised that CPS came?
23 AB: Dr. Seward told me today.
24 JP: Were you surprised?
25 KT: Are you happy or sad?
   21

1 AB: Happy.
2 KT: You're glad we're involved?
3 AB: Uhóhuh.
4 UF: (UI) .
5 JP: And feel less scared? I think that you and Carol,
6  and mom are gonna get a lot of help even if God and if
7  CPS didn't exist. That back in the olden days, that
8  people just wandered around, their whole life. You know
9  they had covered wagons and all that stuff.
10 KT: One thing, a while ago, when you asked me what would
11  happen if your mom was never ready and I told you that
12  when you were eighteen, you get to make those decisions,
13  one thing that I should have told you that I forgot is
14  that we still support you and we still help you, we're
15  not gonna just throw you out and leave you. If that ó
16  if it comes to that.
17 JP: That's real important to know.
18 AB: Uhóhuh.
19 KT: That we óó we're still there, but we don't make all the
20  decisions in your life, but we can still help you with
21  things, and we even have a special program for that now.
22 JP: Really? What's it óó does it have a name?
23 KT: PAL, Partnerships for Adult Living, and it's a whole
24  program where they help kids that have been with us until
25  they're eighteen and they help them after they're
    22

1  eighteen, so that if you still need therapy or if you
2  need help balancing your checkbook, any of those silly
3  things that you're supposed to learn and might not have
4  learned, they help you with all that. So just in case it
5  comes to that, don't think that you're gonna be all
6  alone, because you're not. Okay? Is there anything else
7  that you're worried about? Because that would have
8  worried me. I was thinking about that and I thought,
9  "Boy, I better tell her. I don't want her to think she's
10  gonna be all by herself."
11 JP: That's neat, and you know, the way things are going to
12  with, with all the óó you know, it's óó you're almost not
13  in the majority these days, Alice, that you haven't been
14  abused, because it's such a common problem now, and
15  you're only thirteen, and by the time you're eighteen,
16  there probably would be even more programs to help you.
17  And the more that you and Carol and your mom can get
18  help. And you know it's different people, and begin to
19  build a group of people, like Alice that we've met today
20  that are gonna be supportive and be someone you could
21  talk to, be a friend that isn't gonna hurt you, that's
22  gonna be (UI).
23 SD: Is this sounding pretty positive or pretty hopefuL
24  Alice, or not?
25 AB: Yeah.
   23

1 JP: I think mom was really glad that Alice came.
2 AB: I am, too.
3 KT: And another thing, if we do have, have to place you, you
4  can still have contact with your mom and your sister.
5  You can write them and call them. It won't be like we're
6  trying to separate you or anything. Okay?
7 AB: Okay.
8 JP: Can she also have privacy if she wants to, if she were to
9  choose that?
10 KT: Privacy in the center?
11 JP: Uhóhuh. I mean, if she didn't want to write or call,
12  that she could do that, too, when she gets older, if she
13  chose. Whichever way she wants to do things.
14 KT: Yeah.
15 JP: Well, it sounds like you have a lot of decisions. Sounds
16  like you can be as close to your relatives as you'll be
17  safe with. Does that make sense?
18 AB: Yeah.
19 JP: That's (UI) getting help. Anything else?
20 AB: Unhóunh.
21 JP: So you're gonna make a list óó a wish list of things you
22  want about placement?
23 AB: Uhóhuh.
24 JP: Starting with a bed?
25 SD: Yeah. Alice ó
   24

1 KT: And don't forget those, I might forget that bed.
2 SD: Is this gonna be like other times where you sort of
3  waited to see how it was gonna go before you could really
4  trust into something? You know what I'm talking about?
5 AB: I don't think so.
6 SD: How come?
7 AB: I don't know. I just don't think so.
8 SD: So you're gonna feel confident that this is gonna turn
9  out the right way and that they're going to decide to
10  find you a good placement, you're not gonna worry that
11  they'll make the wrong choice or decision there?
12 JP: Boy, I'd worry. I'd want to talk with my therapists and
13  my mom and I'd want to discuss it in family therapy and
14  talk about with my doctor and really chew on it. You're
15  not gonna do any of that?
16 AB: Yeah, I am.
17 JP: Huh?
18 AB: I am.
19 JP: What's this baloney, then?
20 AB: Well, I'm not ó
21 JP: You figured out some way to do all this without worrying?
22 AB: No.
23 JP: Oh, okay. You sure?
24 AB: Yeah.

1 JP: Will you let me know if you figured out how life goes
2  without worrying.
3 SD: I'm very puzzled about you sitting there and hardly even
4  breathing and kind of looking off into space and saying,
5  yeah, it's gonna be real comfortable. It doesn't ó
6  didn't seem like how you usually are when you're really
7  comfortable and confident and so on.
8 JP: Anyone ever bring you up worry?
9 AB: Why?
10 JP: Because there may be things that Alice says that you
11  don't like or that you worry about or that she talks
12  about something and you're not ó you're not sure how it
13  will go.
14 SD: And you don't have to be passive here.
15 JP: This is your life. You're the one that gets to go sleep
16  on that floor. Anybody hear me? Did you put the bed on
17  your list? I mean, you know, the floor may be linoleum
18  or carpet or you know óó I don't know.
19 AB: (Laughs) .
20 JP: You need to know you can question Alice and ask her and
21  ask us and bug us about what worries you.
22 SD: And can she call you if she wants to say anything else,
23  or is this like a final exam that she either passed it to
24  get safety or not?

1 KT: This is the only time. You can't ever talk to me again.
2  I'm gonna give you my phone number óó would that help?
3  Where's that piece of paper? You can call me any time.
4 SD: Now you're sure they can afford to take Alice, of Alice,
5  given that they can't afford the cards for you yet?
6 KT: They're affording them. It just takes forever to print
7  them. I can't even óó We've got so many people, and then
S  they ran out of the blank ones, because nobody has cards.
9 JP: Alice, I think maybe you could make Alice cards, what do
10  you think?
11 KT: Make me some cards? I need some cards.
12 JP: You could decorate them and all.
13 KT: Decorate all those little kids --
14 JP: If all your clients made some cards for you, you'd have
15  some neater cards ó
16 KT: I'd have some neat ones. That's my number, that's my
17  office number, that reaches me directly.
18 AB: Okay.
19 KT: And this one down here is the secretary.
20 AB: Okay.
21 KT: If I'm not in or if I'm not answering, you can call her
22  and leave a message.
23 AB: Okay.
24 KT: And I'll call you back as soon as I can.
25 JP: Can you remember her name?
   27

1 AB: Yeah.
2 KT: That's a hard one, isn't it? But if you have anything to
3  add, if you think of anything that you forgot to tell me,
4  or anything that you're worried about, any questions, you
5  can call me any time.
6 AB: Okay.
7 JP: If she's upset about something and she's gotten real
8  upset and she tells someone, can they call you, too,
9  about something that's really upset her if she wants you
10  to know?
11 KT: Uhóhuh, yeah.
12 AB: Okay.
13 KT: Because I need all the information I can get so that I
14  can make sure this is right for you. Okay? Because all
15  I know about is what I read and what you tell me, and
16  what other people tell me, like your therapists.
17 AB: Okay.
18 KT: So you're gonna make sure I know what I need to know?
19 AB: Yeah.
20 KT: Yeah?
21 JP: Like we've got no bedspread.
22 KT: Probably just be happy if you had a bed, huh? And not
23  the floor?
24 JP: She sleeps with bricks in her bed.
25 KT: Bricks?
   28

1 JP: Yeah.
2 KT: Uhóhuh. Bricks are really comfortable. Put your head on
3  them.
4 JP: Uhóhuh.
5 KT: Use them as pillows.
6 AB: Do you do that, too?
7 JP: Yeah, yeah, and if you don't tell her any different then
8  she'll go back to Ivy and she'll say there's this really
9  weird girl, I don't know what kind of therapy they did,
10  but she needs bricks in her bed.
11 KT: So do you want bricks in your bed? I can put that down
12  in your report, alright.
13 AB: Definitely.
14 JP: So you'll need to be able to tell Alice what you don't
15  want.
16 AB: Yeah.
17 JP: Okay. Because that's really hard for you. She'll just
18  nod her head, and you won't know, Alice.
19 KT: Don't let me do that.
20 JP: Oh, she will, Alice. You're gonna have to really ó
21 KT: You ye gotta make sure I know, because otherwise you'll
22  get there and you won't be happy. Okay? You want to be
23  happy. Right?
24 AB: Yeah.
25 KT: You want to be comfortable?

1 KT: Yeah.
2 KT: Then you have to tell me, and if I say something that you
3  have questions about, you have to ask, so that we make
4  sure we're thinking alike. Okay?
5 AB: Okay.
6 KT: Because I might say something and think you're thinking
7  the same way and you're not, so you've got to let me know
8  that's not exactly what you had in mind, that you didn't
9  really want the bricks.
10 AB: (Laughs).
11 KT: That maybe you were just joking about that. Right?
12 AB: Right. But I don't know about other people. I think she
13  has bricks in her bed.
14 KT: You think so? Well, I don't have to find her a place,
15  so. . .
16 JP: That's why I have to use the cane is because, you see,
17  the bricks in my bed are just terrible.
18 KT: So is there anything else I should know before I leave
19  today?
20 AB: I don't think so.
21 KT: Nothing else? And if you think of anything else, what
22  are you gonna do?
23 AB: Call you.
24 KT: Okay. Is it okay if I call you when I need more
25  information?
   30
1 AB: Yeah.
2 JP: She has a phone code, you'll need to know then, Alice,
3  uh, it's in the óó the nurses have it in the card there ó
4  ó you have to say a certain óó you have to say a number
5  to get through.
6 KT: Okay. So I'll ó
7 JP: So that (UI) for when the right people call her, so that
8  it stays real safe for her. Mom and Carol have phone
9  codes, too.
10 KT: Okay. I'll have to get everybody's, so I can call
11  everybody, because I'm sure I'll need more information.
12 AB: Only you and Ivy are gonna know the phone code. Right?
13 KT: That's right. Well, actually, only. me. Ivy wouldn't be
14  calling you.
15 AB: Okay.
16 KT: If she has any questions, she'll ask me and then I can
17  call you and ask you.
18 AB: Okay.
19 KT: All right? .
20 JP: Is that important to you?
21 AB: Yeah.
22 JP: Why?
23 AB: So that the wrong people don't call me. People I don't
24  know.

31
1 KT: Well, all you have to remember is me. That's the only
2  one I'll give it to, just me.
3 AB: Okay.
4 SD: Well, should we shift out of here so they can talk with
5  your sister?
6 AB: Yeah.
7 SD: And would you like to find an office and process a little
8  bit?
9 AB: Yeah.
10 SD: Okay.
11 JP: You gonna write in her chart?
12 SD: Yes.
13 JP: Okay.
14 SD: Well, either way, you've spent the time, you want to
15  write on it, it makes a little difference to the uh,
16  numbers.
17 JP: Why don't óó Yeah. Why don't I -ó If you could just
18  bring me the chart, I could just ó
19 SD: Sure.
20  (Tape stops, then starts again)
21 AB: It's over. That was scary.
22 SD: What was so scary about it?
23 AB: I don't know. It was just scary. I'm glad -ó I'm glad
24  it happened and I'm glad it's over.
25 SD: Was this scarier than the first time?
   32
1 AB: No.
2 SD: When we talked about óó That was scary, too?
3 AB: That was more scary.
4 SD: That was more scary. Can you touch in with what was
5  scary about it?
6 AB: I guess because I've never talked to her before.
7 SD: Uhóhuh. That she was a strange person?
8 AB: Yeah, and I'd óó I'd never met her before.
9 SD: Uhóhuh.
10 AB: But I was definitely glad it was a lady.
11 SD: Uhóhuh.
12 AB: And I was óó it was cool she's got the same name.
13 SD: Uhóhuh.
14 AB: And I was really glad that y'all were there, because I
15  had worried that anybody wouldn't be there with me.
16 SD: Uhóhuh.
17 AB: My biggest fear was that it was going to be a man and
18  nobody was gonna be able to be there with me ó
19 SD: Oh.
20 AB: óó but it wasn't that way at all and I'm really glad it
21  wasn't.
22 SD: Yeah. The other time they caught us unexpectedly, you
23  know? This, this lady was able to call and kind of make
24  an appointment time, so that we could um, do it a little
25  bit better.
   33
1 AB: Yeah, that was a lot better. (sighs)
2 SD: I'm glad you can breathe again, you'd óó have a bunch of
3  deep ones because you looked like you weren't even
4  breathing. It just looked like. . .
5  (End of Side B)