SD: Sylvia Davis
JP: Judith Peterson, Ph.D.
BW: Barbara White
RS: Richard Seward, M.D.
UF: Unknown Female
(UI) Unintelligible
SIDE A:
1 (Noises, door closing)
2 SD: Think she forgot something, I didn't quite hear that.
3 (Pause - door closing)
4 JP: What's going on?
5 BW: Well, uhm, I was surprised when I read on the consult
6 sheet this morning why I was going to the doctor because I
7 was, was not, I was not under the impression that that's
8 why I was going to the gynecologist. At all.
9 JP: What'd it say?
10 BW: It said something, it said something, please exam for
self-
11 [mutilation].
12 (Pause)
13 BW: And I don't understand where that came from. I, I know
14 that when Dick was here, you said you wanted me to be
15 checked because you questioned that. But it was never, I
1
1 was taken off SP, you never brought it up again. Never
2 was approached and, no one ever approached me about that
3 possibility. And I felt very humiliated.
4 JP: Is that what you're upset about?
5 BW: That's one of the things I'm upset about. And I
question
6 your integrity. I feel that that was very manipulative
7 just to, to do that in front of my husband.
8 JP: To do what in front of your husband?
9 BW: To say that I was internally self mutilating.
Obviously,
10 since I wasn't externally self mutilating, I had to be
11 internally self mutilating.
12 JP: Uh-hmm.
13 BW: I thought that was very manipulative to do in front
of...
14 JP: How was that manipulative?
15 BW: Well you know, you, you, there was no reason for you to
16 question that.
17 JP: There wasn't?
18 BW: No, there wasn't.
19 JP: Oh...
20 BW: There was no indication...
21 JP: ...is it.. Who am I talking to?
22 BW: You're talking to Barbara, and others.
23 JP: And who's the other?
2
1 (Pause)
2 BW: Rosemary.
3 JP: Mm hmm.
4 BW: The teacher.
5 JP: Mm hmm.
6 BW: You're talking to the leaders.
7 JP: The leaders of the cult pack?
8 BW: Yes.
9 JP: Cause you're doing a real good job. And you wanted to
be
10 in therapy. And I really welcome you into therapy, and
11 I'm really glad that you're here. And I hear that you all
12 have been to group, and I hear that you've all been to
13 individual therapy, and I hear that you've been out with
14 your peers on the unit, and generally been available. And
15 I think that that's very, very good. And you're doing a
16 remarkable job of splitting and distorting and
17 manipulating and doing all that you possibly can do to
18 make things very difficult, and so, in terms of your power
19 and ability to do all those things, I, I just want to
20 commend you all. Because you want to know whether or not
21 you could be here and be in therapy. And you most
22 certainly can be. You'll be called on all those behaviors
23 because cult behavior is something that you and your
3
1 family are working, I assume, to help be able to remove
2 from your family. So you will be called on that behavior.
3 And that's not the same as, as leading therapy or being
4 rejected or anything else. But cult folk always
[interpret]
5 it that way. But that's what's happening. And they
6 distort, and they're verbally abusive, and they, you know,
7 they're generally not very nice people a lot. But you're
8 sure welcome. We're glad to have you.
9 (pause)
10 RS: I'm glad to see you again.
11 BW: I feel as though I'm being set up.
12 JP: In what way? We wanted you all to know, and all of us,
13 and Trish couldn't be here at the same time so that, we
14 couldn't all meet together, and we're sorry our schedules
15 didn't completely jive. But Trish knows that we're
16 meeting. In terms of everybody knowing, on the treatment
17 team about what's going on and how glad we are that you're
18 here.
19 BW: I can see you're delighted.
20 JP: Hmm?
21 BW: I can see you're delighted.
22 J?: Mm hmm.
23 BW: And I feel so welcome.
4
1 JP: Mm hmm. And you're very, very good at being sarcastic.
2 BW: So are you.
3 JP: I'm not being sarcastic. I am very glad that you all
are
4 here. Because you are welcome to come during the sessions
5 with Dick and you did come out. And we knew things would
6 be dificult after he left if you all chose to remain and,
7 and really join therapy. So you're doing exactly what we
8 thought would happen, and we're really glad you're here.
9 SD: I have to say ditto to that also. I really mean that.
10 RS: I think it takes a lot of courage to be here.
11 SD: Mm hmm. I told the Barbara's when we were talking about
how
12 difficult it would be to have you come out, ah, my
13 favorite nurse has an expression, you know, anybody whose
14 not a bitch by the time they're forty hasn't been paying
15 attention. I love that saying, and it's true. Because I
16 value this strength that you're gonna bring to this
17 system.
18 BW: Well we do have some things that we need to talk to you
19 about also.
20 SD: Yes, I know. I have a few things that I want to
mention
21 to you also, but I really am glad to have you here.
22 (Pause)
5
1 BW: Well how am I going to reconcile with my alters if this
is
2 a safe place to work. When I feel that I've been used.
3 That I've been manipulated. Humiliated.
4 RS: How much of what we talked about Saturday got shared?
5 BW: I, I don't, I'm not having a problem with you. I told
you
6 that on Saturday.
7 RS: No, that's not what you told me on Saturday.
8 JP: Do you know what? This reminds me Doctor Seward, of the
9 old days, long ago, because when the cult parts are
10 really, really out, and like the past, that for whatever
11 reason, they really, really don't get along with women.
12 and they tend to get along better with men.
13 RS: Well my point was, is that I was told that ah, that
things
14 along the line that ahm, ah the things that I was saying
15 would be betrayed later. Ah, that it wasn't good enough
16 that their expectation, that they would be hurt if they
17 were out saying the things that they were saying to me, ah
18 wasn't being met. Ah, that there was just no trust, that
19 for many of the things that I was saying wasn't going to
20 lead to hurt (UI)
21 JP: The other thing that I think might be different, Doctor
22 Seward, is that, I think that when this group was out
23 before, and I think that they were out before that they
6
1 were really able to manipulate the male that was on the
2 treatment team and cause a lot of splitting. And so this
3 may be real different for them. And, and I hope we'll
4 feel a lot safer, in terms of everybody being able to be
5 out and ah, do whatever they need to do. And I, I think
6 that that might be real different.
7 (Pause)
8 RS: The, the very fact that I was given a letter...
9 JP: ...Mm Hmm...
10 RS: ...I was told that ah there was no belief that it would
11 actually get to you.
12 JP: Mm hmm.
13 BW: That what, the letter would actually get to you?
14 RS: To her.
15 (Pause)
16 BW: What was it (UI)?
17 RS: Of what we talked about, that...that it was your
18 expectation that we use the letter.
19 (Pause)
20 BW: But I understand what you're saying about the
differences
21 between men and women, the (UI) parts.
22 JP: Mm hum.
7
1 RS: My main point was, already some of the assumptions that
8
1 JP: Mm hmm, what we did tell you was that if
everybody
9
1 with whom ever treats you here. That has, that's
10
1 RS: That um, this part or this group of parts is so irate as
11
1 seeing and uh, in terms of how everything's worked out.
12
1 BW: Because that's what has happened in the past.
13
1 gonna be here, I haven't got that settled. Cause I
14
1 BW: See nobody...
15
1 JP: So I'm not sure whether DICK will come before the
November
16
1 make sure that he was close to DICK and (UI) and Doctor
17
1 BW: I find this team abusive and manipulative and I don't
feel
18
1 SD: I said hi to you and smiled as we started down the hall
19
1 BW: I think it's basic to my problem.
20
1 like, are, you know, is the grange safe, seem to
21
1 I was thinking that if he was monitored from down here, I
22
1 BW: What would you like me to work on? Thank you. Well
23
1 JP: Uh-hmm.
24
1 JP: And when you first came here, there were times when you
25
1 you call it, a fun house, where all the mirrors are and
26
1 RS: So what was Rosemary and the others probably saying is
27
1 JP: (UI)
28
1 family layer so that you're gonna do whatever you need to
29
1 JP: I do, that's why you're here. That's why we're inviting
1 RS: That was me, it wasn't Dr. Peterson...
31
1 RS: It's real difficult to look directly (UI) what happens
32
1 and that we're missing things, because I don't want to
33
1 JP: And you see I would expect the cult parts to have a
harder
34
1 a healthy way as a therapist loves someone that they've
35
1 BW: So I won't have any possibility, there's not gonna be
any
36
1 JP: I only ask the questions, (UI)
37
2 they go on, ah have been shown to not work. And the
3 suggestion would be that maybe other assumptions,
4 particularly, as being applied to women on the treatment
5 team may also be a question.
6 JP: Uh huh.
7 BW: I have no options. I have to work with you because if I
8 don't work with you, Doctor Sachs won't let us join George.
9 JP: That's not true. I don't know where you heard that.
10 BW: I heard it from you.
11 JP: No. I'm sorry I never said that.
12 BW: Yes you did.
13 JP: Huh uh. No...not at all.
14 BW: ...And I...
15 JP: ...wait, wait, wait...
16 BW: ...Doctor Seward, I would be...
17 JP: ...just, just a minute...
18 BW: ...and I would be committed. Not to state, not to a
state
19 facility where I could easliy get out of. But to here.
20 JP: 0h, what we did tell you, ah, I'll go back to the
other in
21 just a second.
22 RS: ...That's a little distorted, but...
2 inside that really wants treatment was sorta squashed down
3 real deep, and the parts were really up high, that are
4 real cult and really want to leave and would really
5 endanger all of you. But you all wanted to know that we
6 would keep you here. And we assured you that we would and
7 that we would, and that if we had to do a commitment we
8 wouldn't do it to any place away from here, that we would
9 stick right with you through that process. Right here.
10 And I want evervone down deep, that's underneath what's
11 happening right now, all the way down to really hear that,
12 that that is exactly what we'll do. Is we'll keep you
13 right here. Dick will continue to come, we will still go
14 on working on everything because we're committed to
15 working with you. We're not going to send you anywhere.
16 No matter how difficult things get. And going back to the
17 other point, it would certainly be coercive for me to say,
18 well you have to work with me at this (UI) . You can
choose
19 another Ph.D. if you want to. You can do that. You've
20 always had that capability of doing that. Whether Doctor
21 Sachs in Chicago works with Dick and George has nothing to do
22 with who treats you in Houston. And she can commmunicate
2 irrelevant. That's never been a problem.
3 BW: Well then maybe we need to take a look at, um, at
4 different therapists, group.
5 JP: You can do whatever you like to about that. That's up
to
6 you.
7 BW: I do want to ensure that, that Dick and George still get
8 treatment with Bobbie.
9 JP: That's not related. But I think that somebody told you
10 that.
11 BW: Yeah, I think somebody did too.
12 Uh huh, it was Doctor Raymond. So I'll just be real clear
13 about it. Because he wrote it in the chart and it was a
14 lie. And in fact, right after Doctor Raymond left, in
15 terms of treating you, I processed that with lots of you,
16 that indeed that was not the case. That number one, I
17 wasn't leaving you, and number two, that wasn't at all
18 true what he had said about that. Because he directly
19 said that to all of you. And really upset you and that's
20 not the case at all.
21 RS: Yeah, it's really a puzzle to me.
22 JP: What's the puzzle?
2 we don't get to see you very often.
3 JP: Uh-hmm. But they want to get rid of me.
4 RS: Yeah, that don't make sense.
5 JP: I don't know what that's about.
6 BW: Well I didn't, I didn't realize that we earned your, um,
7 time.
8 JP: How do you earn time?
9 BW: That's how, basically how we were questioning how do you
10 earn your time? Um, SYLVIA said that um, you had spent
11 eight hours with us last week when DICK was here. So I was
12 wondering how much time I needed to earn for DICK's next
13 visit.
14 JP: Wh...that's real good cult thinking. And I commend you
15 all for somehow being able to distort what normally
16 occurs, and what I had said to you all before Dick ever
17 came was that I'd be spending some real concentrated time
18 and that meant...meant to that I didn't see some other
19 patients. Or spent less time. So I do catch up with them
20 with the anticipation to, that I will be spending time
21 with you and I'll also be spending time again in a
22 concentrated fashion with you and DICK. But that's more my
23 role now, cause you have Sylvia and Trish that you're
2 Which is all things that you requested.
3 SD: Let's not forget the distortion. I forget where that
came
4 up. That somehow you were gonna be gone all of October...
5 JP: Oh.
6 SD: And therefore DICK couldn't come. I don't know where
that
7 came from.
8 BW: I asked SYLVIA um.
9 SD: No, I'm SYLVIA, remember?
10 BW: Yes, and I'm BARBARA remember? I asked SYLVIA if there
had,
11 had, there had in fact been um, any commitment to DICK
12 coming down. If arrangements, if a date had been set, and
13 she hedged...
14 SD: I said no.
15 BW: ...that no, there hadn't been a date...
16 SD: That's not an hedge. It's a direct answer, no it
hasn't
17 been set.
18 RS: You've really drawn some conclusions about that.
19 JP: What were the conclusions?
20 BW: The conclusions were that DICK would not be, be coming
down
21 in October because you would be to busy to see us. We
22 would get, we would get pushed to the back burner.
23 JP: Why?
2 JP: When?
3 BW: In Au...in the month of August. When Dick um, made
4 arrangements to come down three times.
5 JP: Uh-huh.
6 BW: And he had to cancel.
7 JP: I was away on vacation, and I wanted to be, well he had
8 the option of coming when I wasn't here. And TRISH was
9 gone a lot too, then, and so was SYLVIA. Ano we really
10 wanted to make sure that our whole team was here when you
11 came, when he came. For...so both of you would have all
12 of our time.
13 BW: Are there arrangements, did you make arrangements to
have
14 Dick come down in October?
15 JP: No I haven't. There's something that you don't know
16 about, that I think maybe I should tell you about because
17 it will eventually come up. Bobbie Sachs has some very
18 serious surgery and that has complicated things
19 tremendously. And so things like arranging for Dick to
20 come, the normal time I have to talk with her about
21 things, all of that, has been disrupted by something that
22 she did not plan. And so there are some very, very
23 genuine reasons why, not only things like when is DICK
2 literally have not been able to communicate with his
3 normal, the way I normally do with his treatment team
4 right now. Cause of what's happened. And also I'll be
5 away a couple of extra times this fall. Once in October.
6 Once in December. To do workshops for Bobbie. And Iím
7 doing those as a favor. And she would do that for me.
8 BW: No I didn't. I had no way of knowing that Bobbie was,
was
9 ill.
10 JP: Well, that's cause I didn't say anything. I didn't
want
11 it to distract from your visit, with your husband. She
12 was already hospitalized then.
13 BW: Is it too personal to ask what, what is wrong?
14 JP: She had a spinal fusion.
15 (Pause)
16 SD: And she's doing well. Didn't I hear you say she's
making
17 a good recovery. Just takes time from tnat.
18 JP: Yep.
19 BW: Serious. Uncomfortable surgery. Sorry to hear that.
20 JP: Well I knew you would be, and it was something you
know,
21 that I didn't want to get you sidetracked with. Because I
22 knew when Dick came down. And so did DICK.
23 (Pause)
2 RS: I can appreciate your compassion.
3 JP: Yeah. Cause I think that all the parts that are, um,
out
4 and being real tough right now also really care.
5 BW: Who is seeing Dick and George in Bobbie's absence?
6 JP: I don't know that right now. I know that Dick explained
to
7 you that he has four different therapists, I believe. As
8 to who he sees and whenever he sees always just for
9 himself, one he sees every week, and there's a person he
10 does body work with and he has another person he sees,
11 can't remember, I know that all those ingredients are
12 there for him except for obviously, Bobbie, I'm assuming
13 all that's going on.
14 BW: And how about George?
15 JP: I don't know how it's being handled at the hospital or
16 who's covering for her. So when things like that happen,
17 things get discombobulated. And that's taken some more of
18 my time. In terms of, of more professional obligations
19 that I wouldn't normally have, (UI) . But on the whole I
20 know it's business here except that I'm (UI) . It
wouldn't
21 mean much for the other patients to know that.
22 BW: No.
2 conference or not. I would like him to.
3 BW: (UI)
4 RS: (UI)
5 (PAUSE)
6 BW: I'm disappointed that Dick can't come. Be here before
7 November.
8 JP: I didn't say that. I said I don't know whether he can
9 come before the November conference. (UI)...between now
10 and then, but I'll be flying up to Chicago anyway. And
11 I know I' 11 be working with George (UI)
12 BW: Are you sure that you'll be working with George?
13 JP: Well, that's if their treatment team still wants me to,
14 but sure. That's the plan.
15 SD: Do you still want Dr. PETERSON to meet with me?
16 JP: There are lots of folks that don't know Dr. PETERSON
in a
17 year.
18 SD: I asked that question cause I was under the impression
19 that some folks thought the children who were um, MPD
20 won't gain group treatment.
21 BW: Well I am. very glad that George is not down here. I
think
22 that was the wisest decision that Dick and me made was to
2 Sachs is a, as the main therapist.
3 JP: Um hum.
4 SD: Well that's a little different reason then I've heard
5 before. I just wanted to check that out.
6 JP: Yeah, I've got some real negative things about how
7 horrible it was.
8 SD: No, this reason thing, recently what you've just said,
and
9 I felt made a lot of sense to me.
10 JP Sure but I heard some other things that would sure make
it
11 certainly reasonable that you wouldn't want me to see your
12 son up in...
13 BW: What did you hear?
14 JP: ...Chicago. Hum?
15 BW: What did you hear?
16 JP: I heard that you felt that they were just being treated
17 horrible here. But that you were sure glad that your son
18 was being treated up north.
19 BW: That's true. I am glad that he is being treated up
North.
20 I have no idea how the children are being treated on the
21 unit, on the unit over there. I would not want him in
22 this team.
23 JP: What's that about?
2 that Bobbie is that way and I don't feel like people up in
3 Chicago are that way.
4 JP: Down here they are abusive and manipulative?
5 BW: Yes.
6 JP: And how does that, manifest itself?
7 BW: In meetings like this.
8 JP: How is this? So you'd rather have us one at a time
where
9 you can manipulate? Then for us all to meet together?
10 BW: Well there are occasions where I get all three of you,
I
11 only get all three of you when you, when you, you know.
12 Want to back me into a corner.
13 SD: Or when we come to support you.
14 JP: Or when we meet with your husband. How is this abusive
15 (UI)?
16 (Pause)
17 PS: Because what I would get from it is that somehow it's
18 become abusive for um, different ones or us to say we're
19 glad to see you, to say that we appreciate your
20 compassion. And somehow it would be the message that I
21 would get, is...this is what happened.
2 together. You didn't make any response whatsoever. Was
3 that abusive?
4 BW: You mean right now?
5 SD: Uh-hmm.
6 BW: No. I knew that it was gonna be a confrontation.
7 SD: And a what, did you know it was gonna be a welcoming
also?
8 BW: I don't hear it as a welcoming.
9 RS: And you know what I meant Saturday someone else that you
10 have [a distorted here.]????
11 JP: That's real helpful to know. And it's a real big step
12 that you want to hear it from Sylvia. My question is what
13 do you need to do between now, now and the time that Dick
14 and (UI) come, I mean is this the persona, whatever I call
15 it right now, that you would want to be directly
16 addressing Dick and have, what do you want to accomplish?
17 Normally there's, you've done things, that there's been a
18 piece of work you've done in between times, and so my
19 question would be, what is it that you and I did?
20 BW: Well I thought that um, I could continue working with
21 Lillie um, on being (UI), because I think that...
22 JP: I'm talking about what you need to do in therapy, with
23 your therapist, (UI) not your therapist.
2 JP: I would guess right now that if uh, if the parts are out
3 most of the time, I'm thinking most of the time, that
youíre
4 basically doing a tremendous amount of cult work and you
5 don't want your cult thinking to be changed evidently, so
6 you're putting up a great big wall. And throwing out and,
7 and uh, cascading along that wall, across that wall, (UI),
8 calling us abusive and manipulative which is exactly what
9 I have sensed you've been doing ever since Dick left. Is
10 being abusive and manipulative.
11 BW: And I guess I try to stay in my room and isolate as
much
12 as possible.
13 JP: Well ye who, ye who have doth sharp tongue doesn't
need to
14 spend much time doing it. I think you're very effective,
15 I mean you're extremely effective.
16 BW: Well if you think I'm such a detriment to the unit why
17 don't you, why do you want to keep me here?
18 JP: Didn't say that. I said you're extremely effective.
And
19 I'm asking you what you would like to accomplish between
20 now and the time DICK comes. For example, say if he were
21 to be able to come before the end of October.
22 BW: I would like to work some more around safety. And you
23 know, there would be kinda some specific questions as to,
2 indicate...
3 JP: Well right now we're dealing, right now with whether
4 you're safe, because right now we have the cult. And so
5 what do we do now with what you need to do, and what you
6 need to work on. Unless you all want to keep this part of
7 yourselves as whole and complete cult as possible for Dick.
8 I mean I'm not sure that, DICK's reaction would be and well
9 I think sure it can be arranged, I think I could do it
10 through Deborah right now, would be to arrange a family
11 session on the phone. For you to be able, you can
12 certainly try all this out on Dick, and see what his
13 reactions are, and, and have a family session on the
14 phone. That, that can be arranged. Well I think I can do
15 that right now without Bobbie. I, I would need to check
16 I've never asked Bobbie, But I think that would be okay.
17 BW: Well, that was one of the things I was gonna ask Dr.
18 Seward anyhow, because um, this, wouldn't this use one of
19 Dick's therapy times?
20 JP: Uh-huh.
21 BW: And isn't there another, limited amount of therapy
22 sessions that he has per year, (UI)...insurance policy, so
2 have a (UI).
3 JP: Uh-huh.
4 BW: If he was monitored from down here...if we, our
5 conversation...
6 JP: The less one has to keep track of the (UI), the alters
7 stay out, further out.
8 BW: If the conversation were monitored from down here by you
9 or...
10 JP: By whom?
11 BW: By Dr. Seward, or you...
12 JP: How has it been?
13 BW: It's been that, well, that you and Dr. Sachs have both
14 been on the phone, but I'm saying if Dick could call from
15 home that way, and if he would still be able to hear what
16 was being said, but he wouldn't have to give up a session.
17 JP: I can ask about that.
18 BW: Cause I, I think it's important, that you know Dick....
19 JP: I think it's real important for him to hear you.
Because
20 there's no point in talking about safety right now.
21 You're not a safe person.
22 (Pause)
2 obviously what I plan to work on is not what you have in
3 store for me so I might as well just ask. I have no
4 recent memories of, of abuse of Dick or George coming up, so
5 I'm not gonna...
6 JP: Cult alters don't have memories of abuse because
7 everything's hunky dory. We just abuse our husband and
8 son, it's okay. And we abuse our treatment team too. And
9 we abuse the people around us, you know, mostly like a,
10 sort of a thunder cloud. See nothing has changed in your
11 reality except you. You still have the same treatment
12 team. How long has it been since DICK came? Has it been a
13 week in a half or two weeks?
14 RS: Yeah, about two weeks.
15 JP: Ummm. Two weeks on Wednesday? Well we need to really
16 think about how much...
17 BW: (UI)
18 JP: Of course not. How can you work on safety (UI) How
can
19 you work on safety when you can't even identify a safe
20 treatment team and all of a sudden it's been.. it's
21 evaporated. Your basic issues around just your
22 environment here...
23 BW: It's true, I do.
2 RS: Need to work on safety then you gotta distort.
3 JP: Yeah, she's doing a really good job. What are you all
4 gonna do about that? I mean to me doing abreactive work
5 around how the distorters and the, and the strong cult
6 alters that are here now, or you all, how's that gonna
7 work out? (Pause) I mean I assume y'all came out here to
8 be in therapy. You're invited to be in therapy. We're
9 glad you're here and we also expect you to work.
10 BW: Can we handle it?
11 RS: I think it took a great deal of courage to be out
Saturday
12 and talk to me after all that time. I think it takes a
13 great deal of courage to be out so much right now.
14 JP: Um hum. And courage in the system to trust us enough to
15 know that we're not (UI) . That we really are here.
16 BW: Well I, I am struggling with, whether I am being a big
17 fool or whether...
18 JP: What's a fool? That's a cult thinking, they make a
fool.
19 I think sometimes in the last week especially I saw it all
20 the time and I saw you. That the cult was making you into
21 something (UI), that they must have done that to you,.
22 BW: You know they have. You know that Emily, because we,
we
23 worked on that.
2 wore lots and lots and lots of make-up.
3 BW: When I first came?
4 JP: Uh-huh. (UI)....came across in the same way, and it's
5 been the same parts, there were hurting the same ones...
6 BW: Do you think I have too much make-up on now?
7 JP: Un unh. No. But I think that really varies, in that
8 there are times when you were feeling artificially made
9 up, (UI). And I think you all have many things to work
10 through. And those are just as important to work through.
11 And you need to be out here in therapy, doing those pieces
12 of work, and getting them ready with Sylvia and abreacting
13 them with Trish. Dick invited all of you out to work, and
14 Dick wants to love you, you better take him up on the offer
15 and then you're also doing the work. And at first that
16 means testing the (UI) and making sure they're here for
17 you. And let me tell you. You're sure doing a good job
18 for Carol in group.
19 BW: I'm only calling them as I see them.
20 JP: She really likes it.
21 BW: I know she (UI)...really appreciated it.
22 Um hum. How are you ever (UI)...if you all don't work out
23 the distortions, it's gonna be like living in a, what do
2 every thingís...you know where all the mirrors make things
3 look different than they really are.
4 BW: I hear that (UI)
5 JP: You hear about the distortions? Cause I don't hear, I'm
6 not sure you hear what you have to do if you're
7 distorting. See I'm still the same person and so is
8 SYLVIA and so is Dr. SEWARD. Yeah, and Trish, and yet I,
9 what I hear is that you are somehow seeing us in very,
10 very different ways. And there's really all kinds of
11 words that are abusive and manipulative and this, that and
12 the other and, obviously (UI)...the whole month of
13 October. You know Dr: SEWARD last October she said the
14 same thing about October and I think it has to do with it
15 also being a very important cult month. Of course tonight
16 is (UI) and I think it has to do...cause you said the same
17 thing last October and I couldn't figure out what that was
18 about. And I wonder whether there are little ones inside
19 that were abandoned and hurt a lot in October of every
20 year?
21 BW: Well, October is the month of my birthday.
22 JP: (UI)...profound abuse.
2 that they're really afraid.
3 JP: Probably.
4 BW: I don't feel like you're here for me now. I feel like I
5 just got reprimanded and I knowí I believe, that I will
6 behave (UI). I will only say nice things on the unit and
7 (UI)...and I will avoid being out of my room as much as
8 possible.
9 JP: Who was like this in your family? Was your mom like
this?
10 (Pause)
11 BW: I'm not understanding...
12 JP: Who talk...
13 BW: ...like what?
14 JP: Who talked like that?
15 BW: This was the expectation that my mother had of me.
And I
16 learned (UI).
17 JP: And so the bad feeling that you're feeling about how
(UI)
18 BW: And I think (UI)
19 JP: That must be a really scary feeling.
20 BW: She wasn't (UI)....to do it cause you know that George is
21 involved, George and Dick are not involved in that kind of
22 thing, and to lose...
23 RS: (UI)
2 (LONG PAUSE)
3 JP: What's happening?
4 (LONG PAUSE)
5 BW: I'm not sure.
6 JP: And see I don't know what that means.
7 BW: I don't even know (UI).
8 JP: That somebody will (UI)...how to do whatever it feels
9 like. Is that something about you understanding (UI)?
10 BW: I don't know how to explain it.
11 JP: Is that something that you understand (UI)?
12 BW: I don't know what you can understand.
13 JP: That's real different than what you just said.
14 BW: No. Is this okay?
15 RS: I just asked a question.
16 BW: I don't want to lose my son If possible. I will do
17 whatever it takes...
18 JP: Even work through these parts?
19 BW: ...to keep my son...
20 JP: Even work through these parts? Because what you all
need
21 to know is that we'll help you here, but how you are is
22 not uh, something that's consistent with having a non-cult
2 do to keep your husband and your child, that means you're
3 gonna work through your issues here. Work, work through
4 what happened to cause you to feel the way you do and
5 distort the way you do. You must of done some very bad
6 things, to make things conceivable. You had to practice
7 (UI)...And do just right. Sounds like it would be very
8 helpful for your next task in therapy to do the real work
9 with Sylvia and how the distorters came to be. And then
10 whoever to abreact that. So that the cult parts that are
11 hiding behind the distorters, will be able to see the (UI)
i2 without the distortions. See, the distortion protects all
13 of you from the, the real knowledge. You just live in a
14 fun house, and you're distorters (UI)
15 RS: And it's all (UI).
16 JP: Uh-hmm. So I invite the distorters or those who know
17 about the distorters, to come (UI). Wouldn't it be neat
18 to be able to see the world the way it really is?
19 (PAUSE)
20 JP: And your cult leaders could decide if you really want
the
21 cult or if you really do want to join (UI)
22 BW: When are you gonna believe that I'm sincere about
23 treatment?
2 you to take the next step. See what you're saying has
3 nothing to do with what I just said.
4 (PAUSE)
5 JP: I'd really encourage you Sylvia, to just focus with Barbara
6 on distortions and how they came to be because that needs
7 to (UI). And the cult parts won't let you deal with that
8 cause that's their protection against reality. And we're
9 never supposed to see the (UI) . I'm gonna be real angry
10 when (UI)
11 BW: (UI)
12 JP: Safer right now than (UI). That's when I heard you
13 journal about, is how the distortions came to be.
14 RS: I wonder how accurate (UI)
15 BW: I don't remember when it was.
16 RS: About the (UI) of deception (UI)...Dr. Peterson...(UI)
17 BW: Probably...(UI)
18 RS: Okay, we got through this on Saturday. In your
19 prediction, how quickly did the (UI)?
20 BW: As quickly as...(UI)
21 RS: And has it happened in here?
22 BW: No, it happened when Dr., (UI)...when he was...(UI).
30
2 JP: I didn't...
3 RS: ...I wrote the order.
4 JP: ...I didn't know anything about your appointment.
5 RS: I wrote that order.
6 BW: Well why didn't you say something to me.
7 PS: Well, wait, wait, wait, wait. We can get into that
8 tomorrow if you wish, I'll be glad to. But we were just
9 talking about your retaliation from Dr. Peterson and what
10 your prediction is about, and what my prediction is. Was
11 I...(UI)
12 BW: Well I don't expect you to come down, lying down here
in a
13 (UI)
14 (END OF SIDE A)
15 (BEGINNING OF SIDE B)
16 RS: ...my intentions were and I was told that eventually, I
17 was told that the expectation (UI) I would have already
18 retaliated. And I hadn't. That was real difficult to
19 deal with. So the same kind of thing I think is going on
20 right now. Can you accept that?
21 BW: I know what I have to do.
2 aren't exactly what you expect them to do. It's real
3 difficult (UI) to do that.
4 JP: I need to ask a question Dr. SEWARD and I feel that I'm
5 (UI) but I can't ignore it because my ah, my guts are
6 really telling me something, and I may be wrong. But with
7 your concern over whatever the, whatever was said on the
8 gynecological exam and you said you weren't on suicide
9 precautions and all that I've watched you do this evening,
10 cause I need to know if we're being (UI)...that that's
11 another way for deeper parts to really make us feel
12 extremely inadequate as a treatment team. And a while
13 ago, I missed that you were self mutilating, to the point
14 where you were bleeding. And I wonder If somebody now is
15 doing that...
16 BW: That's not true. I told what that was.
17 JP: Uh-hmm. Well I want to ask now...
18 BW: And that was...
19 JP: ...that I'd like that, I'd like to ask the fingers...
20 BW: Alright.
21 JP: ...If there's any harm at all to the body that's going
on.
22 If there's any reason that you should be on precautions
2 miss anything.
3 BW: But I want you to hear very clearly that I was not self
4 mutilating, that I have...
5 JP: I'm talking about...
6 BW: ...cysts that fill up with pus every once in a while...
7 JP: I'm wanting to ask you...
8 BW: ...and when it breaks sometimes blood comes out.
9 JP: I want to ask right now.
10 BW: Well I wanted to make, I want, I want you to understand
1l that. And that's what I told LISA.
12 JP: Uh-huh. And I'm talking about whether or not any part
of,
13 any part of (UI), is (UI) any part of the body.
14 BW: She was very, very (UI) with her exam today.
15 JP: I want to ask the fingers whether there's any part all
the
16 way down in any way, that is hurting or doing something to
17 the body. And that's the most automatic non-hypnotic
18 signal that I've ever seen from you. And that makes me
19 not know what to do.
20 RS: I think somebody was moving that finger.
2 time in keeping the body safe. And certainly not to be
3 able to do.
4 BW: But somebody came through on the other hand.
5 JP: Yeah.
6 JP: And I'm real concerned that parts down deep feel
protected
7 and hurt. And I, I'd like to ask the fingers if those
8 parts down deep, are real aware that we're right here for
9 all of you, no matter what. And (UI)...that we'll remain
10 here for you. I hope the cult thinking hasn't taken over
11 your whole system. And that indeed the parts are
12 listening. And are aware, and know that this is what has
13 needed to come so that these parts can have equal
14 opportunity in therapy and be able to work through their
15 issues together.
16 BW: Thanks guys.
17 JP: Thank you very much. Don't smile. Someday you may
learn
18 about that.
19 BW: I just wish I (UI)...had done to make you hate me so
20 much.
21 JP: Well I really consider it an honor that all of you said
22 that because it's obvious that's not true, then you know I
23 love you. And I'm here for all of you. And I love you in
2 worked with for a long time. And I watch you grow and
3 blossom and develop, and now take these very, very big
4 risks.
5 RS: (UI)
6 JP: Of course it does. And for them to shut down. But
that's
7 okay, isn't that something, you are doing more cult talk
8 with your hands tonight than I've ever seen you do. And I
9 just think it's really neat. That everybody is talking at
10 every level.
11 (Pause)
12 JP: You know roses have thorns.
13 (PAUSE)
14 JP: And if there are parts that are even more difficult
that
15 want to know if it's safe to come out, need to hear, hear
16 again a reassurance. That we'll help you with the
17 difficulties and we'll help you stay here. Just like we
18 said. We're right here with you.
19 BW: How much longer do you think I need to stay?
20 JP: Stay where?
21 BW: Here.
22 JP: As long as you need.
23 (Pause)
2 possibility of really being a family?
3 JP: That's not what DICK said at all and I'm so sad that you
4 distort what DICK said.
5 BW: I know what DICK said.
6 JP: You distort what DICK said.
7 BW: He doesn't control my mind, you do.
8 JP: Oh and that is cult too. And again with opposites that
9 means that you know that I don't control. And right now
10 the cult is controlling your mouth. And that must be
ii pretty frustrating when the cult controls your mouth. It
12 must be really scary Sylvia. It's like being a puppet, a
13 marionette. And that must feel bad. But things can be
14 different, you can work on that. So the distortions and
15 also Sylvia, about how does one become a puppet. I guess
16 that must have been a lot of torture. Real deep torture
17 at an early age. I really appreciate you all sharing.
18 BW: Are you gonna put me back on SP?
19 JP: (UI). And you all can do that as punishment. And
that's
20 what I talked about, (UI)...but with all the warnings
this
21 evening, I needed to ask, and ask if there are doctors
22 who....
23 RS: (UI)
2 BW: Can I still go outside and sit on, when the smokers go
3 out?
4 RS: Somebody said yes.
5 JP: Sure you can.
6 BW: I really am gonna miss my walks.
7 JP: (UI)...Wish we could figure that out for everybody on
the
8 unit. And we're really stuck right now. Cause we'd like
9 you to take walks. We don't know how to do that.
10 Different precautions, we would like that to happen for
11 everybody.
12 BW: What about um, physical therapy?
13 RS: I can arrange for you to still have that.
14 JP: Yeah. I'm so proud of you, you're doing such a good
job.
15 (Pause) And the best is yet to come you know.
16 (Pause)
17 (Door opening)
18 (Background noise)
19 (END OF CONVERSATION)